Transcript of W. Thomas Smith Interview

Recently on Unto the Breach, we interviewed military analyst W. Thomas Smith, Jr. on the activity of the terrorist organization Hezbollah. The audio can be found here. Following is a transcript of the interview.

September 12, 2008

Chris Carter:    We’re on the phone, live, with W. Thomas Smith, Jr., military analyst and columnist.  How are you doing today?

W. Thomas Smith, Jr.:    Doing Great Chris.  Thanks for having me.

CC:    Excellent.  All right.  Let’s just get right into it, here.  Looking back into the fighting this past May, which led to the Doha Agreement and the new unity government, Hezbollah attacked the Future TV station.  In your opinion, what did Hezbollah accomplish by attacking a Lebanese Television Station?  And what could they have gained?

TS:    Well – two things.  First of all, it…it was an attack on a major source of information opposed to Hezbollah in Lebanon.  And second, the Future Movement, which is Sunni, is pro-government; and the Future Movement is a ma…major player in the pro-democracy movement in Lebanon – this is a threat to Hezbollah.  So when you launch – um…and just… this is…is speaking militarily – when you launch an offensive against a population or an army, or whatever, you go after its command and control, which is basically what Hezbollah did by going after Future News.  And when I say Hezbollah, let’s say Hezbollah and its allies, because that would include, you know, Hezbollah, Amal, the Syrian Social Nationalist Party, that crowd.  So, I’m not at all surprised, um…you know…if you look at previous wars and whether civil wars or larger conventional wars, invasions, whatever, you’re going to see that when you go after command and control, a portion of that command and control, you know, are the television and radio stations.

CC:    mmmhmmm.  Well, just recently – this month – a team of Brazilian journalists were eating at a restaurant in Dahiyeh province…or a Dahiyeh neighborhood…and they were kidnapped by Hezbollah.  What effect does this intimidation have on Western Journalists in Lebanon.

TS:    Yeah, that’s…the pronunciation is actually Da-heey-a, and what that, and Dahiyeh translated literally means “the suburbs”.  And it is the southern suburbs in Beirut which, basically, is a Hezbollah stronghold.  Hezbollah controls it.  They have all authority in there.  Umm, gosh I almost feel like I don’t have enough time to adequately cover this when I’m asked a question like that, because its…there is so much to this, but let’s just say that, you know, what happened in Dahiyeh with the Brazilian journalists – it was bizarre to say the least – but it wasn’t at all surprising and, you know, though Hezbollah’s apologists and its sympathizers would lead you to believe that anyone can just freely stroll or jog, or drive, or dine, or take pictures, or whatever…in…in Hezbollah controlled security squares like Dahiyeh…and you have to understand, Chris, that Hezbollah has greater control over the media than most Westerners realize.  I mean they, they control through intimidation.  They pay off journalists.  They pay off seemingly objective news desks.  I’m not saying that all media is corrupt in Lebanon; but, but again, you do have this problem of Hezbollah’s control.  Hezbollah also runs their own papers.  They have their own papers. They have their own radio stations and TV Station.  And they have an allied TV Station, which is Orange TV, which was started by General Michel Aoun, who is an ally of Hezbollah.  They’ve also effectively infiltrated media – both Lebanese and international media.  That includes, to a lesser degree, even bloggers.  You’ve gotta count that because that, that information is out there.  But, but you have to also remember that Hezbollah does not let journalists see what they don’t want them to see.  You know, there are stories taking place all the time – and there are big stories – related to Hezbollah and Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and their operations as well as Syrian special operations that are either not reported or they receive, you know, only very limited coverage.

CC:    Yeah, you talked about some things like that on our last interview.  It’s really interesting as far as how how they suppress the media. Moving on to another subject, here…you were recently interviewed in Canada Free Press, in an article called “Strange Rumblings in Lebanon” and this was interesting.  You said rather than a state within a state, you called Hezbollah more of a kingdom within a state.  What did you mean by that?

TS:    Well, that’s just kind of my play on words; because…you know…frankly, Hezbollah is often called a state within a state. Um, and…and what I say is its a kingdom within a state because very simply Hezbollah governs, well, it actually rules from the top down as a kingdom.  And if you look at how the organization is set up, its very similar to the Taliban model.  You know, they provide social services, and things like that, but…and law enforcement.  But, on the reverse, they demand unwavering loyalty and service to Hezbollah.  So, yeah…it is…it is, in my mind, a kingdom within a state.

CC:    We move back to the fighting in May – it was triggered not just by Hezbollah’s microwave telecommunications network, but also by the government firing the head of Airport Security.  Now, after the dust settled this May, did Hezbollah retain its initial position of security at the Rafik Hariri Airport?

TS:    Yes, in fact…uh, you know…he retained his position as the security chief at the airport.  And, uh, and…in fact…all government decisions against Hezbollah were rescinded, and they were granted…in fact…new concessions – uh, more cabinet seats, veto power, that kind of thing.  So, you know, the, you know, there, there were basically two things that started the fighting; and, one was, again, the firing of the Airport Security Chief and then the government trying to dismantle the telecommunications system.  Hezbollah got to keep both.  And then, looking back at the…yeah…and looking back at the cabinet seats and the veto power – that is really disturbing to me, particularly the veto power.  Because, this, Hezbollah was granted veto power in government decisions, which means Iran and Syria have veto power in government decisions, because they call the shots.  And, in fact, Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps – which I mentioned earlier – um, within that IRGC is Iran’s special operations force, known as the Quds Force.  And we have uh informa…we received information this past week through open sources that Quds force –  senior leaders with the Quds Force – were holding high level meetings with Hezbollah in Beirut last week.  And, basically what they were doing was letting, just reminding Hezbollah who calls the shots, who pays the money, and who is making the decisions.  So, yeah, this….by granting Hezbollah veto power, you are basically granting Iran and Syria veto power in Lebanese government decisions.  Its insane.

CC:    It is insane.  I hope people start to pay attention to Lebanon and the situation that is going on around there.  That meeting you brought up actually you can read about that on unto the breach newsdesk and we’ll tell you about that a little bit after the interview.  In that same interview, you brought up the discussion that you had with the now President of Lebanon, Michel Sleiman, where he said “Hezbollah is a resistance” and “They were here before the army.”  If Hezbollah basically started around 1982 and Lebanon was formed all the way back in 1943, what’s he saying?

TS:    Yeah well, Michel Sleiman is…he is basically referring to the army since the Lebanese Civil War.  And the Lebanese Civil War ended…I…I’m not sure the exact year, but the early nineties, some say ’91, some say ’92; but, uh, because what happened was, yes you had the…you know…the Lebanese Army prior to that; but, it basically disintegrated, when, uh, when the…the Muslims refused to serve under Maronite Christian leadership, so he is talking about the army since the end of the Lebanese Civil War.

CC:    Oh, that makes sense.  Well, then, you said around half of the Lebanese military is Shia, and it would kinda back this up here…in the book Hezbollah: A Short History written by Augustus Richard Norton, he says “About half the rank-and-file of the Lebanese Army are Shia and the resistance was popular with the army.”  So, my question is, how deeply has Hezbollah infiltrated Lebanon’s Army?

TS:    Well, one thing I wanna point out.  You mentioned “resistance”…or that that Norton mentioned in his book – the resistance.  And I want your listeners to understand when you hear the word “resistance” that is the soft-soaping word for Hezbollah.  That’s what it is.  Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, no question about it.  But they’re, uh, they’re able to exist and skirt UN Mandate by claiming that they are a resistance.  So, but getting to your question – actually, our latest numbers indicate that there are probably about 35% of the army is Shia and it is very difficult to determine.  Ten percent of that, would be…of that 35%…we would have to say is in the officer, among the officer corps – Shia among the officer corps.  Now, again it is difficult to determine how many are Hezbollah.  And again we are talking Shia, but how many are Hezbollah would be difficult to determine.  Certainly a high percentage would be sympathetic to Hezbollah; so, there is always this fear of fracturing, you know, similar to what happened in the Lebanese Civil War, which is one of the reasons the army did not aggressively confront Hezbollah in May.

CC:    Alright, we’re back with W. Thomas Smith, Jr. and our interview on Hezbollah.  On August 29th, Hezbollah gunmen shot down a Lebanese Army Helicopter, and they killed one of the pilots.  In response Hezbollah said that there are actually red lines that the Lebanese Army has been warned not to cross – red lines in their own country.  Isn’t this a blatant violation of the United nations Security Council Resolution 1701?

TS:    Well, uh…yes…but, uh, as I mentioned, you’ve got to remember again that Hezbollah is a kingdom within a state and you have to also understand that Hezbollah frequently violates international convention.  And the UN, specifically…uh, Unifil, uh can’t or won’t do anything about it.

CC:    Hmm…that’s tough…that’s something else, there.  now, Hezbollah claims this helicopter they shot down was Israeli.  Now, if that were the case, would we possibly be seeing a replay of the 2006 war between Israel and Lebanon?

TS:    No.  Not Necessarily, because ummm…there are Israeli flights over Lebanon.  In fact, when I was there a year ago, um this month, there were, you know, at night, you would hear Israeli jets, you know, roaring over as far North as Beirut; so, you know, the Israelis do fly over Lebanon.  And so, it…it, you know, its kind of a routine thing.  But, uh, its an excuse on the part of Hezbollah.  They knew it wasn’t an Israeli helicopter.

CC:    Virtually no western media really has picked up on this story.  I’d call it a major story.  How has Hezbollah kept a lid on this incident.  Now, it has been covered inside Lebanon.  It’s been covered pretty well, and that is where I’ve got all my articles from; but, how have they been able to keep the lid on this outside of Lebanon?

TS:    Well, I would have to disagree, uh, to a certain degree.  The story was picked up by the western media; but it had a short shelf life, because so many of these types of events occur in Lebanon.  So, you know, again, it was picked up by western media but it did not…it…maybe it just garnered a column (inch) or two for about a day…umm…and then it was just passed on, because, again, there are just so many stories like this, and in fact even larger stories that are taking place, and often those stories absolutely don’t make western media.  So I was sorta…I was actually surprised that this even was picked up by the AP or Reuters, but it was, in fact.

CC:    Well, now, in the Lebanese Parliament, Naila Mouwad has, uh, stuck her neck out pretty far by saying that Lebanon and Hezbollah cannot coexist.  A week ago she told the U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon, “It’s obvious that we are facing two options: either the democratic state of Lebanon or the Hezbollah state.”  Does this show that the legitimacy of Hezbollah’s resistance is still in question within Lebanese society?

TS:    Well, I think that the majority of Lebanese people do agree with her.  But the problem is, everyone is afraid of Hezbollah.  You know, because Hezbollah has the money, they have the weapons, they have the backing of Iran and Syria – and so, they have the leverage.  And, the people see that; and they see that the army, the police and the government are not willing to confront or…or challenge Hezbollah…and, and nor is Unifil.  And, you know, this is a very real problem.  This is why I say, and I’ve said countless times that Lebanon must be viewed as a major front in the broader War on Terror.  And I say that because Hezbollah. as homeland security chief Michael Chertoff says “makes Al Qaeda look like a minor league team.”

CC:     No doubt.  No doubt.  Well, that’s about all the questions I’ve got for you today, sir.  One thing I wanna do is point our listeners to your website.  Basically everything I’ve got out of here came, from some degree came from something you’ve written about.  You write so much.  And, uh, you’re just a gold mine of information.  But where can listeners go to find more from you?

TS:     My website is uswriter.com

CC:    Well that’s W. Thomas Smith, Jr., military analyst and columnist extraordinaire.  Thank you.  This is the second time he has come on this program.  He just knows so much and he is just so far ahead of the curve.  This guy is great to talk to.  Thanks for coming on the show today, sir.

TS:    Chris, thanks for having me sir.

CC:    Alright, I look forward to maybe having you again sometime.  Its…Its…every time we have you on the show, we learn something new.

TS:    Anytime, thank you sir.

CC:    Alright.  Thank you.