Insights concerning "THEM" versus 'US"
At a critical point in Arthur Miller's great play "The Crucible," the imperious presiding judge at the Salem witch trials tells the accused that "a person is either with this court or he must be counted against it, there be no road between." It is either-or, black and white, guilty until proven innocent. If you're not one of us, you're one of them. And them get hung.
Well, I guess I'm one of them. No, not an unlucky Puritan. I'm an ugly Anti- American.
It seems that these days, as it did in the time of Salem's courts, those who criticize our leaders, especially the current administration, are the new witches in the form of de facto anti-Americans. Never have I heard such vitriol and statements demonstrating a mob mentality as on the conservative talk shows calling for Jay Bennish's termination and figurative dismemberment.
How dare the Overland High School teacher criticize America? How dare he spew such dangerous ideas, such subversive filth? How dare he use the classroom to introduce viewpoints that tarnish our ideals, everything we stand for?
This is what I heard repeatedly: Because he hates America.
Well, then, Thoreau and Whitman and Lincoln and William Lloyd Garrison and Mencken and Upton Sinclair and Fitzgerald and Sinclair Lewis and Ralph Nader and countless others who dissented in various and often repugnant ways must have hated America, too. But, they managed to become famous Americans. How did that happen?
It happened because dissent is just about the most American trait going. This country was founded by the Puritans, "Non-conformists," they were called in England, who were persecuted viciously for their differences with the Anglican Church. Slavery was stopped by unpopular and maligned dissenters, as were child labor and segregation. The fact is, dissent gets people talking, issues mulled, wrongs righted. People find out where they really stand and what they really believe in. Is that a bad thing?
Apparently it is, especially if you're on the "them" side these days. You are then labeled a liberal, a lefty, and anti- American. Labeling is the perfect argument, because it pre-empts argument. Case closed. You're an anti-American.
And if you're Bennish, you're a very ugly one. True, Bennish pushed the envelope too hard and out popped Der Fuehrer. He also said some very provocative and even outlandish things. I'm not the one to say whether they were true or not. They may or
may not be. But I do know this: We have all said things we believed in passionately, at times in ways we probably later revised in private. And then we stopped doing it - until the next time we became passionate about something.
I'm not getting into the argument over whether Bennish's views are right or wrong, truth or lies, or whether the 16-year-olds in his class were temperamentally and intellectually capable of handling his challenge to think for themselves. Again, they may or may not be. But I can assure you of this: They are now talking about these issues in more passionate ways and real terms than can be found in a textbook. I've been in Overland's classrooms this past week, and heard them firsthand.
So let's get rid of this anti-American nonsense. Bennish and the people who support him do not hate America. They question it, yes, prod it, force it to examine itself. Perhaps it is the tenor of the times that questioning is equated with disloyalty or that self-examination is seen as subversion. In a time of war and terrorism, that's understandable. But these trying times are even more reason to see Bennish's speech not as that of a dangerous, intractable despot but a genuinely concerned, albeit limit-pushing, American. A melting pot by definition needs stirring.
In 1692 in Salem, Mass., they hung 19 "thems." One they "pressed" to death with stones. Ten years later, special courts awarded the families of "them" restitution for their suffering, and restored the excommunicated to the church and God. Perhaps the lesson 1692 Salem whispers to us now is a mournful plea for "we."
Bennish is not "them" and neither am I. "Them" and "us" are merely the ugly specters conjured up by those who would selfishly divide a nation derived from and defined by dissent.
Welcome to UNTO THE BREACH DISCUSSION BOARD
 |
Welcome to UNTO THE BREACH DISCUSSION BOARD, like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community, but don't worry this is a simple free process that requires minimal information for you to signup. Be apart of UNTO THE BREACH DISCUSSION BOARD by signing in or creating an account.
|
Guest Message by DevFuse
0
Ugly anti-American or voice of dissent?
Started by Guest_colo_crawdad_*, Mar 08 2006 09:19 AM
93 replies to this topic
#2 Guest_SPIKEFISH_*
-
- Guests
- Member No: 0
Posted 08 March 2006 - 09:31 AM
Bennish is supposed to teach geography, not civics. Even if he was teaching civics, he still shouldn't go into a twenty-one minute diatribe spouting his views to a bunch of sixteen year-olds.
How long is his class, one hour? He should be called on the carpet for wasting class time, and for not teaching what he is supposed to be teaching. Wonder how many of his students could find Colorado on a map?
How long is his class, one hour? He should be called on the carpet for wasting class time, and for not teaching what he is supposed to be teaching. Wonder how many of his students could find Colorado on a map?
#3 OFFLINE
-
- Administrator
-
- 11,260 posts
- Skin: Genesis
Keeper of the Realm
- Gender:Male
- Location:Frostbite Falls, MN
-
Country::
- Time Online: 7h 42m 16s
- Member No: 3
Posted 08 March 2006 - 01:19 PM
I would hardly put Ralph Nader in with the company of individuals with whom he cites.
Kinda gives you an idea from whence the writer speaks.
Wonder if he has a Bush=Hitler poster in his bedroom.
Kinda gives you an idea from whence the writer speaks.
Wonder if he has a Bush=Hitler poster in his bedroom.
Proud Parent of an Iraqi Freedom Veteran!
"As a Declarationist, I declare unequivocally that all men are created equal. They are not gestated as possible candidates for abortion. They are no more eligible for abortion than African Americans are automatically eligible for slavery."
- Michael Moriarty
"As a Declarationist, I declare unequivocally that all men are created equal. They are not gestated as possible candidates for abortion. They are no more eligible for abortion than African Americans are automatically eligible for slavery."
- Michael Moriarty
#4 Guest_colo_crawdad_*
-
- Guests
- Member No: 0
Posted 08 March 2006 - 02:15 PM
So, am I to think that you believe the 'THEM versus US" rhetoric and divisiveness is a good thing?
#5 OFFLINE
-
- Lord of the Shire
-
- 1,010 posts
- Skin: Platnum Winter
Seeker of Truth
- Gender:Male
- Location:Dallas
-
Country::
- Member No: 14
Posted 08 March 2006 - 02:16 PM
Yet again, Lowell takes the side of those most critical of these United States.
The United States of America is not derived from and defined by dissent, but rather from consent as all just governments derive their powers from the consent of the people whose liberties they are instantiated to preserve. Dissent exists in every society, both tyrannical and liberal, and it is often punished by governments which serve there own ends instead of the interests of the people. The defining characteristic of our form of government is that of self rule which is why dissent is tolerated or even encouraged, but dissent itself is neither the first nor the primary characteristic of our society. Tolerance of dissent is a rational consequence of a government by the people as it is the very same people that dissent and what free people would deny to themselves their own precious liberty?
Best Regards,
Richard
The United States of America is not derived from and defined by dissent, but rather from consent as all just governments derive their powers from the consent of the people whose liberties they are instantiated to preserve. Dissent exists in every society, both tyrannical and liberal, and it is often punished by governments which serve there own ends instead of the interests of the people. The defining characteristic of our form of government is that of self rule which is why dissent is tolerated or even encouraged, but dissent itself is neither the first nor the primary characteristic of our society. Tolerance of dissent is a rational consequence of a government by the people as it is the very same people that dissent and what free people would deny to themselves their own precious liberty?
Best Regards,
Richard
#6 OFFLINE
-
- Administrator
-
- 11,260 posts
- Skin: Genesis
Keeper of the Realm
- Gender:Male
- Location:Frostbite Falls, MN
-
Country::
- Time Online: 7h 42m 16s
- Member No: 3
Posted 08 March 2006 - 02:17 PM
colo_crawdad, on Mar 8 2006, 02:15 PM, said:
So, am I to think that you believe the 'THEM versus US" rhetoric and divisiveness is a good thing?
if the "Them" rhetoric, if played out, would be detrimental to this nation's future, then, YES.
Proud Parent of an Iraqi Freedom Veteran!
"As a Declarationist, I declare unequivocally that all men are created equal. They are not gestated as possible candidates for abortion. They are no more eligible for abortion than African Americans are automatically eligible for slavery."
- Michael Moriarty
"As a Declarationist, I declare unequivocally that all men are created equal. They are not gestated as possible candidates for abortion. They are no more eligible for abortion than African Americans are automatically eligible for slavery."
- Michael Moriarty
#7 Guest_beddows_*
-
- Guests
- Member No: 0
Posted 08 March 2006 - 04:05 PM
In a round about way, I think Richard just said the same thing as Colo.
Dissent is a vital part of preserving & growing any democracy. Without it, women would not have the vote, 8 year olds would be going down the mines, Unions would be illegal, there would be no saftey at work, Blacks would not be allowed in restaurants or to ride the bus, etc. All of those freedoms have been gained through dissent & civil disobedience. A lot of those that fought for those basic rights & freedoms were no doubt labled as "anit-American" as well.
Dissent is a vital part of preserving & growing any democracy. Without it, women would not have the vote, 8 year olds would be going down the mines, Unions would be illegal, there would be no saftey at work, Blacks would not be allowed in restaurants or to ride the bus, etc. All of those freedoms have been gained through dissent & civil disobedience. A lot of those that fought for those basic rights & freedoms were no doubt labled as "anit-American" as well.
Edited by beddows, 08 March 2006 - 04:05 PM.
#8 Guest_General Bullmoose_*
-
- Guests
- Member No: 0
Posted 08 March 2006 - 04:55 PM
Telcoman, on Mar 8 2006, 04:05 PM, said:
In a round about way, I think Richard just said the same thing as Colo.
Dissent is a vital part of preserving & growing any democracy. Without it, women would not have the vote, 8 year olds would be going down the mines, Unions would be illegal, there would be no saftey at work, Blacks would not be allowed in restaurants or to ride the bus, etc. All of those freedoms have been gained through dissent & civil disobedience. A lot of those that fought for those basic rights & freedoms were no doubt labled as "anit-American" as well.
Dissent is a vital part of preserving & growing any democracy. Without it, women would not have the vote, 8 year olds would be going down the mines, Unions would be illegal, there would be no saftey at work, Blacks would not be allowed in restaurants or to ride the bus, etc. All of those freedoms have been gained through dissent & civil disobedience. A lot of those that fought for those basic rights & freedoms were no doubt labled as "anit-American" as well.
What part or parts of this thread made you feel the need to share the above with us, Canadian? Are you now the expert on American democracy? Are you black? Did you work in a restaurant as an 8 year old black American? I am trying to figure out what makes a Canadian jump right into a thread about dissent in America? What in hell could you possibly offer?
#10 Guest_SPIKEFISH_*
-
- Guests
- Member No: 0
Posted 08 March 2006 - 06:48 PM
crawdad,
You still have not answered my question as to whether or not Bennish was teaching geography, as he was paid to do. How does learning the state capitals morph into politics, especially with a bunch of sixteen year-olds.
You still have not answered my question as to whether or not Bennish was teaching geography, as he was paid to do. How does learning the state capitals morph into politics, especially with a bunch of sixteen year-olds.
#11 OFFLINE
-
- Lord of the Shire
-
- 1,010 posts
- Skin: Platnum Winter
Seeker of Truth
- Gender:Male
- Location:Dallas
-
Country::
- Member No: 14
Posted 08 March 2006 - 10:46 PM
Paul,
You misunderstand me.
Dissent is not necessary for a free society. Rather, open and vocal dissent is a consequence of a free society and exists in all society to some extent.
Let me give you a few additional examples of dissent. Consider the KKK, the Whiskey Rebellion, Timothy McVeigh, Benidict Arnold, the communist movement during the great depression, and perhaps the single greatest example would be the abandonment of the Union by various Southern states that resulted in the Civil War.
There is nothing noble in the act of dissent alone. Instead, it is the cause in which one struggles from whence the nobility is derived. When the cause is just then we can applaud but when the cause be evil or bigoted, then we might well respect a person's liberty to express unpopular opinions but the fact that they are dissenting does not wash away the filth from their views.
As there is little to fear from the government in terms of reprisal for those, even the most vile, who dissent, America has a bumper crop of dissenters representing a wide range of values, causes, agendas, at. el.. Some of those people are brave, even courageous, and represent the very best in our society while others represent the very worst.
If I have still failed to make plain my meaning, I apologize.
Best Regards,
Richard
You misunderstand me.
Dissent is not necessary for a free society. Rather, open and vocal dissent is a consequence of a free society and exists in all society to some extent.
Let me give you a few additional examples of dissent. Consider the KKK, the Whiskey Rebellion, Timothy McVeigh, Benidict Arnold, the communist movement during the great depression, and perhaps the single greatest example would be the abandonment of the Union by various Southern states that resulted in the Civil War.
There is nothing noble in the act of dissent alone. Instead, it is the cause in which one struggles from whence the nobility is derived. When the cause is just then we can applaud but when the cause be evil or bigoted, then we might well respect a person's liberty to express unpopular opinions but the fact that they are dissenting does not wash away the filth from their views.
As there is little to fear from the government in terms of reprisal for those, even the most vile, who dissent, America has a bumper crop of dissenters representing a wide range of values, causes, agendas, at. el.. Some of those people are brave, even courageous, and represent the very best in our society while others represent the very worst.
If I have still failed to make plain my meaning, I apologize.
Best Regards,
Richard
#12 OFFLINE
-
- Duke of the Kingdom
-
- 9,671 posts
- Skin: Platnum Winter
Esteemed Warrior of the Realm
- Gender:Male
- Location:Aurora, Illinois
-
Country::
- Member No: 139
Posted 09 March 2006 - 04:21 AM
DOGPILE on Bennish!!!
[attachment=1355:attachment]
BAD Teacher ! BAD Teacher !
The classroom is NO PLACE to attempt to indoctrinate children with any political viewpoint! Especially when it isn't even the topic of the class !
[attachment=1355:attachment]
BAD Teacher ! BAD Teacher !
The classroom is NO PLACE to attempt to indoctrinate children with any political viewpoint! Especially when it isn't even the topic of the class !
...Obama again?? ...Really??
#13 Guest_colo_crawdad_*
-
- Guests
- Member No: 0
Posted 09 March 2006 - 07:48 AM
SPIKEFISH, on Mar 8 2006, 05:48 PM, said:
crawdad,
You still have not answered my question as to whether or not Bennish was teaching geography, as he was paid to do. How does learning the state capitals morph into politics, especially with a bunch of sixteen year-olds.
You still have not answered my question as to whether or not Bennish was teaching geography, as he was paid to do. How does learning the state capitals morph into politics, especially with a bunch of sixteen year-olds.
Spikefish,
I have said repeatedly elsewhere that I cannot support all of what Bennish did, but as to him not following curriculum, I think that charge is a red herring. "Political Geography," the title of the advanced level class which he was teaching is one of many courses offered in many Districts" Social Studies Curriculum." Most District's High School Social Studies curriculum guides in Social Studies call for current events to be discussed for 20 - 40 minutes one or two days per week. Remember, these 16 year old young adults will be voting within two years. Apparently that was precisely what Bennish was doing.
BTW, hopefully under the current State Standards and State-wide testing in Colorado, students are to have have mastered the State Capitals by the end of either 4th or 5th grade. (One of my grand daughters had mastered those capitols during Kindergarten.)
#14 OFFLINE
-
- Lord of the Shire
-
- 1,010 posts
- Skin: Platnum Winter
Seeker of Truth
- Gender:Male
- Location:Dallas
-
Country::
- Member No: 14
Posted 09 March 2006 - 10:35 AM
I have listened to almost all of the Bannish recording as it was broadcast on the radio and it can not be characterized as a 20 - 40 minute discussion of current events. Rather, a far more accurate description would be that it was a radical left wing diatribe by a political bigot inflicted on a captive audience. In the spirit of fairness I must admit that a student or two did ask a question, but there was certainly not an ongoing "discussion" of current events and the time consumed by the student voices was but a small fraction of that consumed by Bannish's rantings.
The man has no business teaching any child other then his own.
Best Regards,
Richard
The man has no business teaching any child other then his own.
Best Regards,
Richard
Edited by Richard, 09 March 2006 - 10:36 AM.
#15 Guest_colo_crawdad_*
-
- Guests
- Member No: 0
Posted 09 March 2006 - 11:53 AM
Another perspective. This morning at the breakfast table, my wife just raised an interesting point. Where are those folks who accuse the "left" of "using" folks to further their agenda? Where is their outrage over the use of Sean Allen by the "right" to further their agenda? Sean's father has publicly announced that he is now concerned for his son because many of his son's ave turned against Sean. Yet one has to remember the request of events, according to Sean's father over the past few days. (Gleaned from a number of sources.)
1. Sean taped the segment of Bennish's lecture at his father's request.
2. Sean's father consciously chose not to complain to the teacher?
3. Sean's father consciously chose not to complain to the Principal.
4. Sean's father consciously chose not to complain to the Superintendent.
5. Sean's father consciously chose not to complain to the school board
6. Sean's father consciously chose to deliver copies of the tape to at least two right wing radio talk show hosts, on in Virginia and one in Colorado.
7. The right wing talk show hosts got the tape distributed on a nationwide basis in their zeal to attack the "left."
8. Now, Sean's father says he had no intent of having Bennish punished or fired.
Question: just what did Sean's father want or expect? Are all the things that have since transpired just "unexpected consequences?"
Again. Where is the outcry about using a 16 year old in an attempt to further the right wing's agenda at whatever personal expense to the 16 year old?
1. Sean taped the segment of Bennish's lecture at his father's request.
2. Sean's father consciously chose not to complain to the teacher?
3. Sean's father consciously chose not to complain to the Principal.
4. Sean's father consciously chose not to complain to the Superintendent.
5. Sean's father consciously chose not to complain to the school board
6. Sean's father consciously chose to deliver copies of the tape to at least two right wing radio talk show hosts, on in Virginia and one in Colorado.
7. The right wing talk show hosts got the tape distributed on a nationwide basis in their zeal to attack the "left."
8. Now, Sean's father says he had no intent of having Bennish punished or fired.
Question: just what did Sean's father want or expect? Are all the things that have since transpired just "unexpected consequences?"
Again. Where is the outcry about using a 16 year old in an attempt to further the right wing's agenda at whatever personal expense to the 16 year old?
#16 OFFLINE
-
- Silver Knight of Templar
-
- 9,585 posts
- Skin: Platnum Winter
Priest of the Realm
- Gender:Male
-
Country::
- Member No: 22
Posted 09 March 2006 - 12:23 PM
I listened to the tapes and feel that the teacher should not have used the classroom and the students as his audience for personal political rhetoric.
If he was going to use his rant as a lesson in dissent then I believe he should have made that the subject of the day, told the students ahead of time that he was going to rant for 20 minutes, and then offer up a second part of the lesson for their own ranting. Maybe then he could raise a proper claim that it was all part of the education process.
I also suspect that the student and his father who taped the event have their own political agenda to silence left leaning teachers in public schools.
I believe that dissent is healthy and a requirement for a republic such as ours to continue to exist. Over time water seeks its own level in society. without dissent and debate there always exists the threat of tyranny overtaking the very nature and intent of our chosen form of government. We can lose what we have if we don't constantly keep those in power on their toes. Sometimes dissent takes forms that are not popular--but it still serves the same process equally well.
If he was going to use his rant as a lesson in dissent then I believe he should have made that the subject of the day, told the students ahead of time that he was going to rant for 20 minutes, and then offer up a second part of the lesson for their own ranting. Maybe then he could raise a proper claim that it was all part of the education process.
I also suspect that the student and his father who taped the event have their own political agenda to silence left leaning teachers in public schools.
I believe that dissent is healthy and a requirement for a republic such as ours to continue to exist. Over time water seeks its own level in society. without dissent and debate there always exists the threat of tyranny overtaking the very nature and intent of our chosen form of government. We can lose what we have if we don't constantly keep those in power on their toes. Sometimes dissent takes forms that are not popular--but it still serves the same process equally well.
Wis 1:1-4
1. Love justice, you who judge the earth; think of the LORD in goodness, and seek him in integrity of heart;
2. Because he is found by those who test him not, and he manifests himself to those who do not disbelieve him.
3. For perverse counsels separate a man from God, and his power, put to the proof, rebukes the foolhardy;
4. Because into a soul that plots evil wisdom enters not, nor dwells she in a body under debt of sin.
http://okangel.250fr...AManInHere.html
1. Love justice, you who judge the earth; think of the LORD in goodness, and seek him in integrity of heart;
2. Because he is found by those who test him not, and he manifests himself to those who do not disbelieve him.
3. For perverse counsels separate a man from God, and his power, put to the proof, rebukes the foolhardy;
4. Because into a soul that plots evil wisdom enters not, nor dwells she in a body under debt of sin.
http://okangel.250fr...AManInHere.html
#17 OFFLINE
-
- Administrator
-
- 27,629 posts
- Skin: Steel Glass
Keeper of The Realm
- Gender:Male
- Location:Oklahoma City, OK
-
Country::
- Time Online: 4d 17h 23m 21s
- Member No: 1
Posted 09 March 2006 - 12:30 PM
Quote
I also suspect that the student and his father who taped the event have their own political agenda to silence left leaning teachers in public schools.
Or perhaps they are just wanting some semblance of balance?
I am a free-market, pro-liberty, classical liberal.
#18 Guest_Mainecoons_*
-
- Guests
- Member No: 0
Posted 09 March 2006 - 01:06 PM
Father Mike, people are getting fed up with the near total one sided view of the academic community and how extreme their views are. As you know, I am very un-fond of George Bush. But comparing him to Adolph Hitler is totally over the top.
I'll except Lowell's contention that politics may have been acceptable in a Political Geography AP class. And what does comparing Bush's mannerisms to Hitler's have to do with that topic either? Nothing.
There's not a lot of freedom of speech in an environment where most all of the authority figures only have one point of view, that of the radical left.
This wasn't a firing offense but it definitely deserves a very strong reprimand.
I'll except Lowell's contention that politics may have been acceptable in a Political Geography AP class. And what does comparing Bush's mannerisms to Hitler's have to do with that topic either? Nothing.
There's not a lot of freedom of speech in an environment where most all of the authority figures only have one point of view, that of the radical left.
This wasn't a firing offense but it definitely deserves a very strong reprimand.
#19 OFFLINE
-
- Administrator
-
- 27,629 posts
- Skin: Steel Glass
Keeper of The Realm
- Gender:Male
- Location:Oklahoma City, OK
-
Country::
- Time Online: 4d 17h 23m 21s
- Member No: 1
Posted 09 March 2006 - 01:33 PM
..........
I am a free-market, pro-liberty, classical liberal.
#20 Guest_colo_crawdad_*
-
- Guests
- Member No: 0
Posted 09 March 2006 - 01:35 PM
It appears that Buddy Kidd has missed a good deal of this discussion, but that is his prerogative.
1 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
